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	<title>Comments on: Landmarking Delays</title>
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	<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays</link>
	<description>Ditmas Park</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 15:41:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Freddy</title>
		<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays/comment-page-2#comment-6821</link>
		<dc:creator>Freddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ditmasparkblog.com/?p=3852#comment-6821</guid>
		<description>Couldn&#039;t have said it better myself...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couldn&#8217;t have said it better myself&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Architerrorist</title>
		<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays/comment-page-2#comment-6786</link>
		<dc:creator>Architerrorist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ditmasparkblog.com/?p=3852#comment-6786</guid>
		<description>Is it personal taste - or the architectural character of a given historic neighborhood that landmarking protects?  The latter, I argue.  Why would it be unusual for a neighborhood with a specific architectural style to attract homeowners who value that aspect of the neighborhood and are determined to see it protected?  If that means prospective homeowners who value the neighborhood/homes for other reasons are deterred, why should pro-landmarkers care?  They shouldn&#039;t and generally don&#039;t.  Single family homes WITHOUT rental units currently make up the vast majority of homes in the area, so it&#039;s laughable to suggest that renters make any real dent in the economics needed to preserve the historic character of Victorian Flatbush.  By the way, do people realize how many of these &quot;apartments&quot; in Victorian homes are actually dangerous and illegal. Not all, but many, and unfortunately, people tend to only reflect on this fact when a house is lost to an electrical fire, or worse, when someone&#039;s life is lost in such a tragedy.  But that&#039;s yet another topic.

 If a neighborhood majority (and yes, that means just 51%) support landmarking, and LPC agrees to award landmark designation, the historic character of the neighborhood is protected.  In BSW, where I believe J says he/she lives, more than 51% of homeowners have signed a petition IN FAVOR of landmarking.  That&#039;s all it takes to make an official application to the LPC.   Now it&#039;s up to the LPC.   End of story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it personal taste &#8211; or the architectural character of a given historic neighborhood that landmarking protects?  The latter, I argue.  Why would it be unusual for a neighborhood with a specific architectural style to attract homeowners who value that aspect of the neighborhood and are determined to see it protected?  If that means prospective homeowners who value the neighborhood/homes for other reasons are deterred, why should pro-landmarkers care?  They shouldn&#8217;t and generally don&#8217;t.  Single family homes WITHOUT rental units currently make up the vast majority of homes in the area, so it&#8217;s laughable to suggest that renters make any real dent in the economics needed to preserve the historic character of Victorian Flatbush.  By the way, do people realize how many of these &#8220;apartments&#8221; in Victorian homes are actually dangerous and illegal. Not all, but many, and unfortunately, people tend to only reflect on this fact when a house is lost to an electrical fire, or worse, when someone&#8217;s life is lost in such a tragedy.  But that&#8217;s yet another topic.</p>
<p> If a neighborhood majority (and yes, that means just 51%) support landmarking, and LPC agrees to award landmark designation, the historic character of the neighborhood is protected.  In BSW, where I believe J says he/she lives, more than 51% of homeowners have signed a petition IN FAVOR of landmarking.  That&#8217;s all it takes to make an official application to the LPC.   Now it&#8217;s up to the LPC.   End of story.</p>
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		<title>By: JR</title>
		<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays/comment-page-2#comment-6783</link>
		<dc:creator>JR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ditmasparkblog.com/?p=3852#comment-6783</guid>
		<description>This boils down to whether it&#039;s OK to use the police power of the state to impose your aesthtic preferences on other people.  

Loathsomeness is a subjective matter, and in our neighborhoods, which reflect decades of renovations in all manner of styles with all types of materials, it would be easy for any of us to cite plenty of surrounding examples of, say, bricked-in front porches, or aluminum siding.  Since these elements are clearly part of our neighborhood&#039;s context, on what basis would LPC prohibit me from renovating in a similar style, other than a purely subjective aesthetic one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This boils down to whether it&#8217;s OK to use the police power of the state to impose your aesthtic preferences on other people.  </p>
<p>Loathsomeness is a subjective matter, and in our neighborhoods, which reflect decades of renovations in all manner of styles with all types of materials, it would be easy for any of us to cite plenty of surrounding examples of, say, bricked-in front porches, or aluminum siding.  Since these elements are clearly part of our neighborhood&#8217;s context, on what basis would LPC prohibit me from renovating in a similar style, other than a purely subjective aesthetic one?</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays/comment-page-2#comment-6753</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 23:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ditmasparkblog.com/?p=3852#comment-6753</guid>
		<description>I was referring to the 51% vote of all homeowners in the affected area that Architerrorist referred to above. Not at the public meeting where many people don&#039;t attend or can&#039;t attend.  Or does the LPC just have to get 51% of the folks that show up to a meeting?!

And I never said *renovations* were required.  I said *what type* of renovations are required or forbidden -- i.e., what&#039;s on the new menu of reduced possibilities for your own private property.

Given the 1 or 2 family zoning restriction, the people building in the proposed LPC areas are *individuals,* not evil developers with no connection to the community.  It strikes me that the existent community pressures (natural ones) have been quite effective. No external agency required to help them select their porch lights.

There is another major issue I see in addition to the loss of liberty issue (and, no I have no problem with most of the regulations imposed on private property in NYC - i understand issues of livability, sanitation, safety, etc.  This most definitely includes zoning restrictions that vary from neighborhood to neighborhood as they do.)  

It&#039;s the simple issue that what is *old* came from folks being able to build what they wanted...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was referring to the 51% vote of all homeowners in the affected area that Architerrorist referred to above. Not at the public meeting where many people don&#8217;t attend or can&#8217;t attend.  Or does the LPC just have to get 51% of the folks that show up to a meeting?!</p>
<p>And I never said *renovations* were required.  I said *what type* of renovations are required or forbidden &#8212; i.e., what&#8217;s on the new menu of reduced possibilities for your own private property.</p>
<p>Given the 1 or 2 family zoning restriction, the people building in the proposed LPC areas are *individuals,* not evil developers with no connection to the community.  It strikes me that the existent community pressures (natural ones) have been quite effective. No external agency required to help them select their porch lights.</p>
<p>There is another major issue I see in addition to the loss of liberty issue (and, no I have no problem with most of the regulations imposed on private property in NYC &#8211; i understand issues of livability, sanitation, safety, etc.  This most definitely includes zoning restrictions that vary from neighborhood to neighborhood as they do.)  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the simple issue that what is *old* came from folks being able to build what they wanted&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Freddy</title>
		<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays/comment-page-2#comment-6743</link>
		<dc:creator>Freddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ditmasparkblog.com/?p=3852#comment-6743</guid>
		<description>56 to 2 is hardly &quot;51%.

LPC held meetings in our community to inform homeowners about what it means to be landmarked.  Homeowners were also directed to the LPC website for a great deal of specific information.  Renovations are not &quot;required.&quot;  When a homeowner wants to renovate, they apply to LPC who responds on a case-by-case basis.  And as I said, if homeowners objected to the designation, they could write to LPC or come to the public hearing.  

You have a perfectly rational arguement against landmarking - some homeowners share it.  But in our experience, most do not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>56 to 2 is hardly &#8220;51%.</p>
<p>LPC held meetings in our community to inform homeowners about what it means to be landmarked.  Homeowners were also directed to the LPC website for a great deal of specific information.  Renovations are not &#8220;required.&#8221;  When a homeowner wants to renovate, they apply to LPC who responds on a case-by-case basis.  And as I said, if homeowners objected to the designation, they could write to LPC or come to the public hearing.  </p>
<p>You have a perfectly rational arguement against landmarking &#8211; some homeowners share it.  But in our experience, most do not.</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays/comment-page-2#comment-6737</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ditmasparkblog.com/?p=3852#comment-6737</guid>
		<description>Does the LPC provide each *individual* owner with details about their property before they vote?  i.e., what will be allowed and what will be forbidden?  what renovations are required for &quot;historic accuracy&quot; and what renovations are required to fulfill &quot;like-for-like&quot;?

The concept in the abstract sounds really great to many owners -- for folks that aren&#039;t swayed by the style arguments, they are fed lots of information about huge improvements to property values... money talks.  Are BOTH sides represented... in an official way?  (Not just &quot;opponents&quot; standing up in meetings)

Is the vote truly well-informed?  And is 51% really enough to *permanently* take away a huge chunk of liberty from the homeowners?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does the LPC provide each *individual* owner with details about their property before they vote?  i.e., what will be allowed and what will be forbidden?  what renovations are required for &#8220;historic accuracy&#8221; and what renovations are required to fulfill &#8220;like-for-like&#8221;?</p>
<p>The concept in the abstract sounds really great to many owners &#8212; for folks that aren&#8217;t swayed by the style arguments, they are fed lots of information about huge improvements to property values&#8230; money talks.  Are BOTH sides represented&#8230; in an official way?  (Not just &#8220;opponents&#8221; standing up in meetings)</p>
<p>Is the vote truly well-informed?  And is 51% really enough to *permanently* take away a huge chunk of liberty from the homeowners?</p>
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		<title>By: Freddy</title>
		<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays/comment-page-2#comment-6736</link>
		<dc:creator>Freddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ditmasparkblog.com/?p=3852#comment-6736</guid>
		<description>Actually, a public hearing is indicative.  People who were as vehemently opposed to landmarking would have shown up in droves.  They didn&#039;t.  They could have sent letters against it.  According to LPC, they didn&#039;t.  In our neighborhood, based on community meetings and discussions among neighbors, supporters were clearly the majority.  It wasn&#039;t even close.

But &quot;their will&quot; isn&#039;t being imposed on anyone.  NYC has a law on the books designed to protect structures deemed to be of historic value by LPC.  LPC makes the call, not the neighbors, and sets the standards based on the law.  The fact was that majority of the community of homeowners asked the government to consider our neighborhood for a historic district.  They did, and determined the neighborhood was historically significant.  LPC could have said no.    

Actually, across the country, historic preservation is becoming very popular, with many cities and towns enacting their own laws to protect historic structures.  There was an article in yesterday&#039;s NYTimes about such an effort on Long Island.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, a public hearing is indicative.  People who were as vehemently opposed to landmarking would have shown up in droves.  They didn&#8217;t.  They could have sent letters against it.  According to LPC, they didn&#8217;t.  In our neighborhood, based on community meetings and discussions among neighbors, supporters were clearly the majority.  It wasn&#8217;t even close.</p>
<p>But &#8220;their will&#8221; isn&#8217;t being imposed on anyone.  NYC has a law on the books designed to protect structures deemed to be of historic value by LPC.  LPC makes the call, not the neighbors, and sets the standards based on the law.  The fact was that majority of the community of homeowners asked the government to consider our neighborhood for a historic district.  They did, and determined the neighborhood was historically significant.  LPC could have said no.    </p>
<p>Actually, across the country, historic preservation is becoming very popular, with many cities and towns enacting their own laws to protect historic structures.  There was an article in yesterday&#8217;s NYTimes about such an effort on Long Island.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth</title>
		<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays/comment-page-1#comment-6735</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ditmasparkblog.com/?p=3852#comment-6735</guid>
		<description>With all due respect, the proportion of homeowners who appear at a public hearing who support landmarking is not indicative of their proportion in the general population.  In any case, even if they are a majority(which is doubtful), they should not have the right to impose their will on people they deem to be &quot;clueless&quot; or whose taste they find &quot;loathsome.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all due respect, the proportion of homeowners who appear at a public hearing who support landmarking is not indicative of their proportion in the general population.  In any case, even if they are a majority(which is doubtful), they should not have the right to impose their will on people they deem to be &#8220;clueless&#8221; or whose taste they find &#8220;loathsome.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: bkforman</title>
		<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays/comment-page-1#comment-6724</link>
		<dc:creator>bkforman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ditmasparkblog.com/?p=3852#comment-6724</guid>
		<description>I think all this boils down to respect.  Whether or not people live here as owners or renters or are just passer&#039;s by, it just seems as though there is a current lack of respect for one&#039;s neighbors (LITTER, DOG POOP, etc.).  When this great neighborhood was built, I am sure that people took pride in the neighborhood and we should continue to do the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think all this boils down to respect.  Whether or not people live here as owners or renters or are just passer&#8217;s by, it just seems as though there is a current lack of respect for one&#8217;s neighbors (LITTER, DOG POOP, etc.).  When this great neighborhood was built, I am sure that people took pride in the neighborhood and we should continue to do the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Freddy</title>
		<link>http://ditmasparkblog.com/news/landmarking-delays/comment-page-1#comment-6720</link>
		<dc:creator>Freddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 05:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ditmasparkblog.com/?p=3852#comment-6720</guid>
		<description>A few points of information: Landmarking a neighborhood does not make it less attactive - quite the contrary.  LPC has done a study that shows that landmarked neighborhoods increase more in an up-market and decrease less in a down-market.  (I believe you can read it on the LPC web site).  Quite a few people bought into our area after we were landmarked.  Many people are attracted to such neighborhoods precisely because they appreciate the aesthetic into which they are buying and that it is protected.  If landmarking depresses home values, why are homes in Ditmas Park, Prospect Park South, etc. so expensive?  If there was no demand, the prices would fall.  Of course, the whole market is down, but historically, the landmarked areas have maintained and increased their value consistently.

At our LPC public hearing, 58 homeowners testified - 56 were enthusiastically in support, 2 were against.  This after hundreds of postcards were sent into LPC asking for our neighborhood to be landmarked. And now there is a similar grass roots effort to landmark BSW and the rest of Victorian Flatbush.   So who are the people who &quot;dislike (hate) landmarking and preservationists?&quot;  I know there are some, but from my experience, there are far fewer of them than landmark supporters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few points of information: Landmarking a neighborhood does not make it less attactive &#8211; quite the contrary.  LPC has done a study that shows that landmarked neighborhoods increase more in an up-market and decrease less in a down-market.  (I believe you can read it on the LPC web site).  Quite a few people bought into our area after we were landmarked.  Many people are attracted to such neighborhoods precisely because they appreciate the aesthetic into which they are buying and that it is protected.  If landmarking depresses home values, why are homes in Ditmas Park, Prospect Park South, etc. so expensive?  If there was no demand, the prices would fall.  Of course, the whole market is down, but historically, the landmarked areas have maintained and increased their value consistently.</p>
<p>At our LPC public hearing, 58 homeowners testified &#8211; 56 were enthusiastically in support, 2 were against.  This after hundreds of postcards were sent into LPC asking for our neighborhood to be landmarked. And now there is a similar grass roots effort to landmark BSW and the rest of Victorian Flatbush.   So who are the people who &#8220;dislike (hate) landmarking and preservationists?&#8221;  I know there are some, but from my experience, there are far fewer of them than landmark supporters.</p>
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